[LPGa Executive Committee] A Resolution to Condemn Red Flag Laws, Demand Accountability for Law Enforcement

Mon Aug 12 15:30:50 EDT 2019

I imagine we could debate for a long time about what substantially diminished means, and whether or not that could even be quantified. My issue with it is “social mission creep”. Under b) who qualifies whether the state certified physician is acting in good faith and does some ones medical record get divulged?; c) I doubt a state or municipal judge could make a ruling without a physician statement, which brings us back to b).

Mostly, I think, the “social mission creep” is most opportune when we talk about state and Congress being able to make laws that could further restrict access to guns by good people. Anti gun folks can not agree on what a large capacity magazine is. Is it 8 bullets, 10, 15?? How will consistent legislation get consensus on what rapid fire means. The creep will also come in the area of who or whom is responsible. Feds are willing to regulate Facebook, Twitter, etc. not based on what the companies did, but what users or bots posted. I can see the liability question growing to include anyone who touched the gun that caused harm. I highly doubt the proposed replacement language would stand firm, it would, instead, continue to be limit pushed and tested until restrictions are so tight, maybe only a department in Washington will be empowered to decide who can, and who cannot, own a gun.

Lastly, (I’ll bet you are glad to read that), our right to gun ownership is in place to protect ourselves from tyranny, from both domestic and abroad. While it is true the original writers could guess the technological advancements of personal weaponry, the colonists did have access to the same guns the standing armies used. 

I have yet to read a proposal for new “gun laws” that could definitively prevent the mass shootings. 

In Liberty,

David Barker

Chairman

Libertarian Party of Gwinnett County

From: Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm-bounces at lists.lpgeorgia.com> On Behalf Of Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:01 PM
To: Allen Buckley <ab at allenbuckleylaw.com>
Cc: Ryan Graham <ryan.graham at lpgeorgia.com>; lpgaexcomm at lists.lpgeorgia.com
Subject: Re: [LPGa Executive Committee] A Resolution to Condemn Red Flag Laws, Demand Accountability for Law Enforcement

Hard disagree. Shooting deaths are down over the past decade. We don't take away the rights of innocents because of the actions of a few bad actors. 

Besides, your assumption is that these currently unconstitutional gun laws would stop the mass shooters even though they are happening in states like California that already have strict gun laws. We should be thinking outside the box for solutions, not using government force to make criminals out of people who are acting in peaceful ways. This resolution protects those peaceful people. It could be a good idea to present some sort of solution as well, but I won't support anything that takes away the rights of law-abiding, peaceful people.

---

In Liberty,
Ryan Graham
Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia

On 2019-08-12 14:56, Allen Buckley wrote:

The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now

On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:

Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm.

---

In Liberty,
Ryan Graham
Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia

On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:

One more thing:  The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder

On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:

I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.

When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position.  A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.

I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).

To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.

I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.

On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:

A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:

1.8 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.

---

In Liberty,
Ryan Graham
Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia

On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:

See blue below; glad to see discussion

On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:

There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.

A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any
attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 

1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.

 A state or Congress may by law
provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than
the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual.   AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people.  The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply. 

2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)

A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns.  AB:  Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc. 

3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm at lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm at lists.lpgeorgia.com> > wrote:

While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.

However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion.  Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.

What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist

On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:

Hey Team,

Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNrbGA/edit?usp=sharing 

-- 

In Liberty,
Ryan Graham
Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia

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