A Resolution to Condemn Red Flag Laws, Demand Accountability for Law Enforcement
Hey Team, Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr... -- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions. However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality. What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language. A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. 2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea) A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. 3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle. On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing listLpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.comhttp://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
See blue below; glad to see discussion On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights.
1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.
A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com>> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
1.8 SELF-DEFENSE
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights -- life, liberty, and justly acquired property -- against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote: There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights.
1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.
A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners. When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented. I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill). To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public. I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc. On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
*1.8 Self-Defense*
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com>> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.
On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
*1.8 Self-Defense*
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com>> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder
On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.
On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
1.8 SELF-DEFENSE
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights -- life, liberty, and justly acquired property -- against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote: There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights.
1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.
A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder
On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.
On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
*1.8 Self-Defense*
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com>> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
Hard disagree. Shooting deaths are down over the past decade. We don't take away the rights of innocents because of the actions of a few bad actors. Besides, your assumption is that these currently unconstitutional gun laws would stop the mass shooters even though they are happening in states like California that already have strict gun laws. We should be thinking outside the box for solutions, not using government force to make criminals out of people who are acting in peaceful ways. This resolution protects those peaceful people. It could be a good idea to present some sort of solution as well, but I won't support anything that takes away the rights of law-abiding, peaceful people. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 14:56, Allen Buckley wrote:
The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now
On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder
On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.
On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
1.8 SELF-DEFENSE
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights -- life, liberty, and justly acquired property -- against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote: There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights.
1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.
A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
I imagine we could debate for a long time about what substantially diminished means, and whether or not that could even be quantified. My issue with it is “social mission creep”. Under b) who qualifies whether the state certified physician is acting in good faith and does some ones medical record get divulged?; c) I doubt a state or municipal judge could make a ruling without a physician statement, which brings us back to b). Mostly, I think, the “social mission creep” is most opportune when we talk about state and Congress being able to make laws that could further restrict access to guns by good people. Anti gun folks can not agree on what a large capacity magazine is. Is it 8 bullets, 10, 15?? How will consistent legislation get consensus on what rapid fire means. The creep will also come in the area of who or whom is responsible. Feds are willing to regulate Facebook, Twitter, etc. not based on what the companies did, but what users or bots posted. I can see the liability question growing to include anyone who touched the gun that caused harm. I highly doubt the proposed replacement language would stand firm, it would, instead, continue to be limit pushed and tested until restrictions are so tight, maybe only a department in Washington will be empowered to decide who can, and who cannot, own a gun. Lastly, (I’ll bet you are glad to read that), our right to gun ownership is in place to protect ourselves from tyranny, from both domestic and abroad. While it is true the original writers could guess the technological advancements of personal weaponry, the colonists did have access to the same guns the standing armies used. I have yet to read a proposal for new “gun laws” that could definitively prevent the mass shootings. In Liberty, David Barker Chairman Libertarian Party of Gwinnett County From: Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm-bounces@lists.lpgeorgia.com> On Behalf Of Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:01 PM To: Allen Buckley <ab@allenbuckleylaw.com> Cc: Ryan Graham <ryan.graham@lpgeorgia.com>; lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com Subject: Re: [LPGa Executive Committee] A Resolution to Condemn Red Flag Laws, Demand Accountability for Law Enforcement Hard disagree. Shooting deaths are down over the past decade. We don't take away the rights of innocents because of the actions of a few bad actors. Besides, your assumption is that these currently unconstitutional gun laws would stop the mass shooters even though they are happening in states like California that already have strict gun laws. We should be thinking outside the box for solutions, not using government force to make criminals out of people who are acting in peaceful ways. This resolution protects those peaceful people. It could be a good idea to present some sort of solution as well, but I won't support anything that takes away the rights of law-abiding, peaceful people. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 14:56, Allen Buckley wrote: The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote: Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote: One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote: I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners. When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented. I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill). To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public. I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc. On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote: A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform: 1.8 Self-Defense The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote: See blue below; glad to see discussion On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote: There are some significant Issues with Allen's language. A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply. 2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea) A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc. 3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle. On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> > wrote: While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions. However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality. What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote: Hey Team, Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr... -- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006 _______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm -- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
What I propose would help reduce what is happening, while protecting rights of ordinary people You all propose nothing I vote NO on the resolutions as they stand, as they suggest doing nothing is what the Party recommends On 8/12/2019 3:00 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
Hard disagree. Shooting deaths are down over the past decade. We don't take away the rights of innocents because of the actions of a few bad actors.
Besides, your assumption is that these currently unconstitutional gun laws would stop the mass shooters even though they are happening in states like California that already have strict gun laws. We should be thinking outside the box for solutions, not using government force to make criminals out of people who are acting in peaceful ways. This resolution protects those peaceful people. It could be a good idea to present some sort of solution as well, but I won't support anything that takes away the rights of law-abiding, peaceful people.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 14:56, Allen Buckley wrote:
The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now
On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder
On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc.
On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
*1.8 Self-Defense*
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion
On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights. 1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself. A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm <lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com <mailto:lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com>> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist
On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
In the face of state acts (legislators et al) proposing alleged solutions which violate the Constitution. Whether they would materially reduce stranger-shootings is entirely irrelevant. The ends never justify the means, which in this case is abridging civil liberties. "Don't do something immoral and unjustified" is not the same statement as "do nothing" or "nothing needs to be done." Elizabeth's original resolution says we oppose doing something immoral, which state actors are insisting should or must be done. I vote YEA on the original resolution and I'm happy to author an article to contextualize the debate, which humanizes the party, I think. Ultimately, we must stand behind individual liberties and against unconstitutional abuses that abridge them. That's who we are.
I guess you didn't get what I said: Amend the Constitution to produce a better system As of now, I don't think legislators can do much of anything that is constitutional; I think much of what they've done is unconstitutional Again, you're recommendation, no matter how you want to phrase it, says do nothing I'm done On 8/12/2019 4:25 PM, Laura Williams via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
In the face of state acts (legislators et al) proposing alleged solutions which violate the Constitution. Whether they would materially reduce stranger-shootings is entirely irrelevant. The ends never justify the means, which in this case is abridging civil liberties. "Don't do something immoral and unjustified" is not the same statement as "do nothing" or "nothing needs to be done." Elizabeth's original resolution says we oppose doing something immoral, which state actors are insisting should or must be done.
I vote YEA on the original resolution and I'm happy to author an article to contextualize the debate, which humanizes the party, I think. Ultimately, we must stand behind individual liberties and against unconstitutional abuses that abridge them. That's who we are.
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-- Allen Buckley Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339 Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
I don't think that demanding that the officials who would be carrying out these laws refuse to violate their oath is "doing nothing". That aside, as I look over the wording of it, the second numbered bullet should correctly read "honor their oath to uphold the Constitution" rather than "uphold their oath to the Constitution". Elizabeth On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 4:32 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
I guess you didn't get what I said: Amend the Constitution to produce a better system
As of now, I don't think legislators can do much of anything that is constitutional; I think much of what they've done is unconstitutional
Again, you're recommendation, no matter how you want to phrase it, says do nothing
I'm done On 8/12/2019 4:25 PM, Laura Williams via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
In the face of state acts (legislators et al) proposing alleged solutions which violate the Constitution. Whether they would materially reduce stranger-shootings is entirely irrelevant. The ends never justify the means, which in this case is abridging civil liberties. "Don't do something immoral and unjustified" is not the same statement as "do nothing" or "nothing needs to be done." Elizabeth's original resolution says we oppose doing something immoral, which state actors are insisting should or must be done.
I vote YEA on the original resolution and I'm happy to author an article to contextualize the debate, which humanizes the party, I think. Ultimately, we must stand behind individual liberties and against unconstitutional abuses that abridge them. That's who we are.
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing listLpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.comhttp://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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Your solution is basically to allow the states to remove rights and turn a right into a privilege. I can point out that an argument is bad with out proffering a solution in the same conversation. Want a solution, give 8 weeks of basic training with out the Military indoctrination to condition listening to orders, Teach brother hood, team work and leadership, while giving mental health screenings and make it required of all Americans. Then if SHTF, they can get a referesher after the draft to be conditioned to listen to orders. On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 4:32 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
I guess you didn't get what I said: Amend the Constitution to produce a better system
As of now, I don't think legislators can do much of anything that is constitutional; I think much of what they've done is unconstitutional
Again, you're recommendation, no matter how you want to phrase it, says do nothing
I'm done On 8/12/2019 4:25 PM, Laura Williams via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
In the face of state acts (legislators et al) proposing alleged solutions which violate the Constitution. Whether they would materially reduce stranger-shootings is entirely irrelevant. The ends never justify the means, which in this case is abridging civil liberties. "Don't do something immoral and unjustified" is not the same statement as "do nothing" or "nothing needs to be done." Elizabeth's original resolution says we oppose doing something immoral, which state actors are insisting should or must be done.
I vote YEA on the original resolution and I'm happy to author an article to contextualize the debate, which humanizes the party, I think. Ultimately, we must stand behind individual liberties and against unconstitutional abuses that abridge them. That's who we are.
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing listLpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.comhttp://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
I like the Resolution as is. As a reminder - Article 1 Section 8 clause 11 authorizes Congress "To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;" What Letters of Marque and Reprisal means is that ownership of armaments of any sort was perfectly acceptable and should still be so today. Look at the UK now, after restricting firearm ownership they are working to outlaw knives. See the progression? Murder is in the heart, not in the choice of tool used to perpetrate the crime. Murder is already illegal, like marijuana, and how is that working out? Red Flags laws are a great way for more of the camel getting into the tent. More murders are committed with hammers than firearms. Shall not be infringed means what it says and is what we the people need to cling to, otherwise, like so many communist regimes in recent history, we will become further enslaved and dependent on the mercy of our out of control Government. If this disarmament continues on the current trend, then only government actors will have firearms and the rest of the peasants will be tyrannized relentlessly. Red Flag laws as a concept and under their current design are unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment. They will be used in the same manner as disgruntled ex-spouses use CPS (DFACS) for harassment. Here is a scenario that was posted by Debbie Dooley: "TAKE HEED MY GUN OWNING FRIENDS !!!!! so take your time with this ...!!!! Red Flag Laws...... Here’s what will happen...!!!!!!!!! It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside. A few hours pass... 0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty ole 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flies open . “Oh shit!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those damn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 bullets Riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body. The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered. Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen? Well two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough. The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated. See, he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”. Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist domestic terrorist living next door. He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The SO follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent. Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered. The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing on and killing two deputies and that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”. Oh, those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around. This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit....mark my words ...." On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 5:00 PM Jay Guidry via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
Your solution is basically to allow the states to remove rights and turn a right into a privilege.
I can point out that an argument is bad with out proffering a solution in the same conversation.
Want a solution, give 8 weeks of basic training with out the Military indoctrination to condition listening to orders, Teach brother hood, team work and leadership, while giving mental health screenings and make it required of all Americans.
Then if SHTF, they can get a referesher after the draft to be conditioned to listen to orders.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 4:32 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
I guess you didn't get what I said: Amend the Constitution to produce a better system
As of now, I don't think legislators can do much of anything that is constitutional; I think much of what they've done is unconstitutional
Again, you're recommendation, no matter how you want to phrase it, says do nothing
I'm done On 8/12/2019 4:25 PM, Laura Williams via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
In the face of state acts (legislators et al) proposing alleged solutions which violate the Constitution. Whether they would materially reduce stranger-shootings is entirely irrelevant. The ends never justify the means, which in this case is abridging civil liberties. "Don't do something immoral and unjustified" is not the same statement as "do nothing" or "nothing needs to be done." Elizabeth's original resolution says we oppose doing something immoral, which state actors are insisting should or must be done.
I vote YEA on the original resolution and I'm happy to author an article to contextualize the debate, which humanizes the party, I think. Ultimately, we must stand behind individual liberties and against unconstitutional abuses that abridge them. That's who we are.
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing listLpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.comhttp://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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In a world i can make Phosgene Gas in my Garage. People are worried about an Ar15. That kills less people than Hammers every year. ^im with Ryan On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 2:56 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
The whole point is drawing the line so they cannot commit mass murder (or the likelihood of such is substantially diminished), while protecting the defense rights of ordinary people - it's not getting done effectively now On 8/12/2019 2:52 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
Loonies committing mass murder are already breaking the law. We don't support limiting peaceful individuals rights on behalf of people who might use those rights to do harm. --- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 14:51, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
One more thing: The whole point of the platform position is protection against aggression - not protecting the ability of loonies to mass murder On 8/12/2019 2:46 PM, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
I don't think it directly contradicts, as it is specifically consistent with the rights of private property owners.
When I ran in 2016, a guy from the NRA called me and told me the NRA would have endorsed me had they known about me/my position. A guy on my campaign team was supposed to get in contact with them, but he failed to do so. (So, they endorsed Johnny.) My campaign position was amendment of the Second Amendment along the lines presented.
I do agree with rejecting legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment (as is the Brady Bill).
To say no changes is simply wrong, and a loser with the public.
I could go along with resolving to reject legislation that is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, while stating the Party is open to changes to the Second Amendment to recognizes changes in conditions since enactment of the Second Amendment, etc. On 8/12/2019 2:38 PM, Ryan Graham wrote:
A resolution backing Allen's proposed Constitutional amendment would directly contradict our platform:
*1.8 Self-Defense*
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
--- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
On 2019-08-12 13:50, Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
See blue below; glad to see discussion On 8/12/2019 1:33 PM, Jay Guidry wrote:
There are some significant Issues with Allen's language.
A state or Congress may by law require a background check incident to any attempted purchase or transfer of a gun, to determine rights.
1. So i cant give my best friend i have known for 40 years a ShotGun to go hunting. My wifes friend who fears and Ex Boyfriend we cant loan her a pistol for self defense, I cant leave my Cousin in my house by himself.
A state or Congress may by law provide for civil liability or criminal punishment with respect to use by any individual other than the owner of a gun that causes harm or death to any individual. AB: As to 1 above and 2 below: The point is: If you make your guns available to others, you can potentially be liable if they go out and kill people. The kid in CT (Sandy Hook) took his parent's guns. The whole point of liability/punishment as provided by law requires legilators to come up with when such provisions should apply.
2. So i can be held liable for someone use or Miss Use of weapon i am not in control of, IE someone breaks in my house and steals a weapon then shoots up a school i might be held liable? (this is a bad idea)
A state or Congress may by law restrict or prohibit the use of rapid fire guns. AB: Same as above. I would think older people ordinarily should be able to get rapid fire guns, as they are needed to protect themselves. Again, it's up to lawmakers to decide. Perhaps no federal law would exist and states would act as they saw fit. The whole point of permitting state and federal laws is the Feds would likely provide a floor in at least most of the areas noted. Some states might do nothing. Other states, perhaps such as California, would be very restrictive. Open to other language. The point is machine guns, etc. are not needed by the vast majority of the public for protection or hunting, etc.
3. Outlaw all guns not a revolver or bolt action rifle.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:19 PM Allen Buckley via Lpgaexcomm < lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com> wrote:
While I'm in favor of some changes to the Second Amendment, I think they can legally happen only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution (i.e. a change to the Second Amendment). So, I don't disagree with anything in the resolutions.
However, I suggest whatever is done leave and be open to a reasonable amendment to the Second Amendment -- simple saying NO to any action doesn't cut it - in my opinion. Something needs to be done. I don't think the framers would adopt the Second Amendment given's today's reality.
What I believe is reasonable is attached; other possibilities exist On 8/12/2019 11:13 AM, Ryan Graham via Lpgaexcomm wrote:
Hey Team,
Elizabeth Melton has put together a resolution for consideration tonight about Red Flag laws. Please review and be prepared to discuss and vote for the meeting tonight.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jebszFftjhZwvtIoLwAsnSGTPXeY8sl7rjE33LNr...
-- In Liberty, Ryan Graham Chair, Libertarian Party of Georgia
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-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing listLpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.comhttp://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
_______________________________________________ Lpgaexcomm mailing list Lpgaexcomm@lists.lpgeorgia.com http://lpmail.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lpgaexcomm
-- Allen Buckley
Law Office of Allen Buckley LLC Suite 750, Building 1 2727 Paces Ferry Road Atlanta, GA 30339
Phone: (678) 981-4689 Fax: (855) 243-0006
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participants (7)
-
Allen Buckley -
david.barker＠lpgeorgia.com -
Elizabeth M -
Jay Guidry -
Laura Williams -
Ryan Graham -
Ted Metz