The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

For example, this attached email screen shot does not appear on the google list anywhere, but it was sent to LNC-business On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

...

The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

...

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

Okay I understand that but members are reading that Google list and it is not complete. Large swaths are missing On Monday, June 13, 2016, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lnc-business@lp.org');> for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','carynannharlos@gmail.com');>] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM *To:* Robert Kraus *Cc:* Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lnc-business@hq.lp.org');> *Subject:* Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','carynannharlos@gmail.com');>> wrote:

The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','robert.kraus@lp.org');>> wrote:

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231 <202.333.0008%20x%20231>

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians

size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','carynannharlos@gmail.com');>] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lnc-business@hq.lp.org');> *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

Thank you Starchild.... I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable. Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us. Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....*does not appear in the google list.* It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared. Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved. As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. *They do not appear on the Google lists. *Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below *twice* – apparently because he copied it to both *lnc-business@lp.org <lnc-business@lp.org>* and *lnc-business@hq.lp.org <lnc-business@hq.lp.org>*. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively *harmful* – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the *same* list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ------------------------------ size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM *To:* Robert Kraus *Cc:* Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231 <202.333.0008%20x%20231>

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians

size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

==As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!=== This is contrary to the "welcome" email I got (see attached). It says to post things to lnc-business@hq.lp.org Which one is it? What is the difference? On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

And yes, why the two emails?

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Thank you Starchild....

I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable.

Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us.

Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....*does not appear in the google list.* It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared.

Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved.

As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. *They do not appear on the Google lists. *Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below *twice* – apparently because he copied it to both *lnc-business@lp.org <lnc-business@lp.org>* and *lnc-business@hq.lp.org <lnc-business@hq.lp.org>*. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively *harmful* – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the *same* list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ------------------------------ size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM *To:* Robert Kraus *Cc:* Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231 <202.333.0008%20x%20231>

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians

size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Okay that solves the mystery of the multiple emails. But it does not solve the mystery of the incomplete Google list. Which, as Starchild says, is actively harmful if it does not include everything. You don't need to go through that JC thread morass for thirty minutes to know I am correct. Go to that one post by Brett on the Weeks' situation in Region 3. I responded twice. None of them are there. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

There is but ONE list – both email addresses lnc-business@lp.org AND lnc-business@hq.lp.org work for that ONE list. You DO NOT need to use BOTH emails. Many folks however used to forget the hq.lp.org thing (which is what all of our lists are called) thus we created the forwarder without the “hq.”

To make your life simple - feel free to use either of the two emails. They both go to the ONE list. But do not use BOTH or you will end up sending out 2 emails.

It is also best NOT to “cc” multiple lists or people as there is a limit to how many addresses can listed and thus emails may bounce or require approval which Alicia takes care of.

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] *On Behalf Of *Caryn Ann Harlos *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 5:07 PM *To:* Starchild *Cc:* lnc-business@hq.lp.org; lnc-business Business *Subject:* Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

And yes, why the two emails?

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you Starchild....

I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable.

Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us.

Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....*does not appear in the google list.* It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared.

Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved.

As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. *They do not appear on the Google lists. *Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below *twice* – apparently because he copied it to both *lnc-business@lp.org <lnc-business@lp.org>* and *lnc-business@hq.lp.org <lnc-business@hq.lp.org>*. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively *harmful* – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the *same* list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))

At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018)

RealReform@earthlink.net

(415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231 <202.333.0008%20x%20231>

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ------------------------------

size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM *To:* Robert Kraus *Cc:* Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

*Robert*

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231 <202.333.0008%20x%20231>

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership

LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians

size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

*From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM *To:* Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org *Subject:* Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative

(Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

Robert, I understand the limited time and nightmare of having to work with Google lists. I also understand that the lp.org list has the complete emails. I also understand the threading problem. But I don't think you have understood my point: despite all that, there are messages simply not ending up on the google list. For instance my two replies to Brett's posts on the Weeks' situation. Yes, anyone who wants the full list can go to lp.org. But the point I am making is that having an incomplete list that people can subscribe to is *actively harmful.* If we cannot, due to time (understandable) or limited resources (also understandable) have the google list be complete, we shouldn't have it. As far as other solutions, I am not an IT person. I don't have any solution. I only know that a partially complete list that some people are relying upon to be informed Party members is not helping them, it is hurting them. It is giving them an incomplete picture. I did not take this off list because I feel this discussion is important for the members to see. On Monday, June 13, 2016, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

Thank you again for your comments. From what I can tell Google Groups is getting confused because for some reason when I sort our own list (link below) by subject – I see at least 6 different subject threads.

So it is something to do with the way Google Groups sets up conversations based on subjects. I truly do not have the time I am very very sorry to work this out anytime in the next few days.

ALL MESSAGES HOWEVER APPEAR HERE SO NO ONE WHO WANTS TO READ YOUR CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING CHEATED: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/

Do note you can check messages by thread, author, subject or date.

The Google group is trying to sort by tread (conversation) and I can have it re-sort in some other way (I think default is date). We did try Yahoo Groups before Google but that was worse.

If you would like - please feel free to create an additional group that you will manage and send Alicia and I (off list) the email address for that group and we will ad that to the distro for the business list. Perhaps you know of something better then Google or Yahoo groups?

Please take this discussion off list so Alicia and I can work directly with you on resolving this.

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ________________________________________ From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 5:17 PM To: lnc-business@hq.lp.org Cc: lnc-business Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay that solves the mystery of the multiple emails. But it does not solve the mystery of the incomplete Google list. Which, as Starchild says, is actively harmful if it does not include everything.

You don't need to go through that JC thread morass for thirty minutes to know I am correct. Go to that one post by Brett on the Weeks' situation in Region 3. I responded twice. None of them are there.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: There is but ONE list – both email addresses lnc-business@lp.org AND lnc-business@hq.lp.org work for that ONE list. You DO NOT need to use BOTH emails. Many folks however used to forget the hq.lp.org thing (which is what all of our lists are called) thus we created the forwarder without the “hq.”

To make your life simple - feel free to use either of the two emails. They both go to the ONE list. But do not use BOTH or you will end up sending out 2 emails.

It is also best NOT to “cc” multiple lists or people as there is a limit to how many addresses can listed and thus emails may bounce or require approval which Alicia takes care of.

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 5:07 PM To: Starchild Cc: lnc-business@hq.lp.org; lnc-business Business Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

And yes, why the two emails?

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: Thank you Starchild....

I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable.

Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us.

Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....does not appear in the google list. It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared.

Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved.

As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. They do not appear on the Google lists. Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote: I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below twice – apparently because he copied it to both lnc-business@lp.org and lnc-business@hq.lp.org. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively harmful – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the same list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ________________________________________ size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM To: Robert Kraus Cc: Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM To: Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

I believe we need fewer lists/groups here, not more. The existence of too many LNC lists is creating confusion, and is liable to continue to do so as people come and go from the LNC and the reflector list. I haven't seen anyone weigh in on the two solutions I proposed:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the same list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE On Jun 13, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Robert,

I understand the limited time and nightmare of having to work with Google lists. I also understand that the lp.org list has the complete emails. I also understand the threading problem. But I don't think you have understood my point: despite all that, there are messages simply not ending up on the google list. For instance my two replies to Brett's posts on the Weeks' situation.

Yes, anyone who wants the full list can go to lp.org. But the point I am making is that having an incomplete list that people can subscribe to is actively harmful. If we cannot, due to time (understandable) or limited resources (also understandable) have the google list be complete, we shouldn't have it.

As far as other solutions, I am not an IT person. I don't have any solution. I only know that a partially complete list that some people are relying upon to be informed Party members is not helping them, it is hurting them. It is giving them an incomplete picture.

I did not take this off list because I feel this discussion is important for the members to see.

On Monday, June 13, 2016, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: Thank you again for your comments. From what I can tell Google Groups is getting confused because for some reason when I sort our own list (link below) by subject – I see at least 6 different subject threads.

So it is something to do with the way Google Groups sets up conversations based on subjects. I truly do not have the time I am very very sorry to work this out anytime in the next few days.

ALL MESSAGES HOWEVER APPEAR HERE SO NO ONE WHO WANTS TO READ YOUR CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING CHEATED: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/

Do note you can check messages by thread, author, subject or date.

The Google group is trying to sort by tread (conversation) and I can have it re-sort in some other way (I think default is date). We did try Yahoo Groups before Google but that was worse.

If you would like - please feel free to create an additional group that you will manage and send Alicia and I (off list) the email address for that group and we will ad that to the distro for the business list. Perhaps you know of something better then Google or Yahoo groups?

Please take this discussion off list so Alicia and I can work directly with you on resolving this.

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ________________________________________ From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 5:17 PM To: lnc-business@hq.lp.org Cc: lnc-business Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay that solves the mystery of the multiple emails. But it does not solve the mystery of the incomplete Google list. Which, as Starchild says, is actively harmful if it does not include everything.

You don't need to go through that JC thread morass for thirty minutes to know I am correct. Go to that one post by Brett on the Weeks' situation in Region 3. I responded twice. None of them are there.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: There is but ONE list – both email addresses lnc-business@lp.org AND lnc-business@hq.lp.org work for that ONE list. You DO NOT need to use BOTH emails. Many folks however used to forget the hq.lp.org thing (which is what all of our lists are called) thus we created the forwarder without the “hq.”

To make your life simple - feel free to use either of the two emails. They both go to the ONE list. But do not use BOTH or you will end up sending out 2 emails.

It is also best NOT to “cc” multiple lists or people as there is a limit to how many addresses can listed and thus emails may bounce or require approval which Alicia takes care of.

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 5:07 PM To: Starchild Cc: lnc-business@hq.lp.org; lnc-business Business Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

And yes, why the two emails?

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: Thank you Starchild....

I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable.

Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us.

Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....does not appear in the google list. It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared.

Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved.

As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. They do not appear on the Google lists. Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote: I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below twice – apparently because he copied it to both lnc-business@lp.org and lnc-business@hq.lp.org. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively harmful – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the same list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians ________________________________________ size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM To: Robert Kraus Cc: Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM To: Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

I can't help myself... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! Daniel Hayes LNC Geek At Large Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 13, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote:

There is but ONE list – both email addresses lnc-business@lp.org AND lnc-business@hq.lp.org work for that ONE list. You DO NOT need to use BOTH emails. Many folks however used to forget the hq.lp.org thing (which is what all of our lists are called) thus we created the forwarder without the “hq.”

To make your life simple - feel free to use either of the two emails. They both go to the ONE list. But do not use BOTH or you will end up sending out 2 emails.

It is also best NOT to “cc” multiple lists or people as there is a limit to how many addresses can listed and thus emails may bounce or require approval which Alicia takes care of.

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 5:07 PM To: Starchild Cc: lnc-business@hq.lp.org; lnc-business Business Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

And yes, why the two emails?

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: Thank you Starchild....

I am not trying to be a pain in Robert's behind, but this isn't something we can just go "oh well" about. If I am wrong and missing something, I need to be shown, but those in Region 1 who elected me will be judging me, and the rest of the LNC based on these exchanges and if they are not complete, it is actively harmful. I became aware of this through a FB discussion in which a member was complaining that a point had not been made in a discussion. Yet, I had made that very point, and I realized this member never saw my response. This is not acceptable.

Halfway transparent or incomplete isn't transparent, and it isn't serving our members, and it isn't fair to us.

Now maybe I screwed up and am missing it, but as an example, the opening email in this chain....does not appear in the google list. It appears later when Robert responded to me, but if no one responded, this would never have appeared.

Is this an issue just with my email and with my posts? In any event, this needs to be resolved.

As another example of missing responses, I responded twice to Brett's email about the Weeks situation. You all will have received those responses. They do not appear on the Google lists. Region 1 members (and all others) deserve to have an accurate way to track. If only the one at lp.org can or will be complete, that should be the only one that exists. Having a partial or incomplete list is the worst of all possible worlds.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote: I strongly share Caryn's concern about this issue. Having multiple LNC lists, whether they are used or not, seems to be generating confusion and interfering with transparency. It is often not clear what is going on.

For instance, I received Robert's message below twice – apparently because he copied it to both lnc-business@lp.org and lnc-business@hq.lp.org. I do not understand the difference between those two lists, or why both of them exist. Do they both forward to the public reflector list, or does only one of them get forwarded? (I've copied both lists on this email, so perhaps someone reading on the reflector list can say whether you receive the message once or twice).

This kind of confusing system seems entirely unnecessary, and if Caryn is right about some messages not showing up publicly, it is actively harmful – if there's something I'm missing, Robert or someone please explain in full detail. As things stand, I believe we should adopt one of the two following approaches:

(1) We maintain one and only one list for communication among LNC members, and scrap all other non-public lists entirely. Then it should be a simple matter to ensure that those other lists are not inadvertently used and that everything which appears on the sole LNC list gets forwarded to the public reflector list.

(2) We have everyone (LNC members and non-LNC members) subscribed to the same list, but with only LNC members having posting privileges. Then there would never be any question of whether all the messages on our list are properly making it to the public list, since they would not need to be forwarded at all.

I favor option #2 as being the best, if it is technically feasible, but option #1 could also go a long way toward resolving these issues.

Can we get one of these approaches implemented ASAP without passing a formal motion about it?

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (2016-2018) RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE

On Jun 13, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Robert Kraus wrote:

As Alicia pointed out the other day - please note there is only one list lnc-business@lp.org for LNC Business thanks!

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:48 PM To: Robert Kraus Cc: Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Re: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

Okay someone on FB might have figured it out. Are there "two" lists" LNC-Votes and LNC-Business and the google one only is if you reply to LNC-Votes?

I can show you messages of mine which are days old which **do not** appear on the google list.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: The list on lp.org is complete. The list on the google groups (which is what members are following) is not. There are emails that appear in one list and not the other. This is an issue.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Robert Kraus <robert.kraus@lp.org> wrote: I am not sure what list you are referring to however everything posted to LNC-Business is available here: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/date.html

And also via Google Group here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lncvotes

Live Free!​​​​

Robert

Robert S. Kraus - Dir of Operations Operations@LP.org Libertarian National Committee Ph: 202.333.0008 x 231

Join today: https://www.lp.org/membership LP FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/libertarians size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> From: Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:carynannharlos@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 3:34 PM To: Robert Kraus; Wes Benedict; lnc-business@hq.lp.org Subject: Not all of the LNC emails are appearing on the LNC reflector list

There are large bit of the discussion on:

"Fwd: Remaining Members of Judicial Committee Fill Vacancies" that are missing from the LNC reflector. I have my email copy of the thread and it is not complete on the reflector.

If the members are going to be viewing this, it needs to be complete.

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org