Yes. Patrick McKnight Region 8 Rep On Apr 22, 2017 5:46 AM, "David Demarest" <dprattdemarest@gmail.com> wrote:

I vote Yes on email ballot 2017-08.

-David Pratt Demarest

On Apr 22, 2017 12:49 AM, "Alicia Mattson" <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

...

We have an electronic mail ballot.

*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Co-Sponsors:* Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

*Motion:* The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

Yes On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 4:48 AM Sam Goldstein <goldsteinatlarge@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes

Sam Goldstein Libertarian National Committee Member at Large 8925 N Meridian St, Ste 101 Indianapolis IN 46260 317-850-0726 Phone 317-582-1773 Fax

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Patrick McKnight < patrick.joseph.mcknight@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Yes.

Patrick McKnight Region 8 Rep

On Apr 22, 2017 5:46 AM, "David Demarest" <dprattdemarest@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I vote Yes on email ballot 2017-08.

-David Pratt Demarest

On Apr 22, 2017 12:49 AM, "Alicia Mattson" <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

...

We have an electronic mail ballot.

*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Co-Sponsors:* Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

*Motion:* The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

Aye. Brett **This message sent from my phone. Please excuse any typos. On Apr 22, 2017 17:08, "Whitney Bilyeu" <whitneycb76@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes.

Whitney Bilyeu

On Apr 22, 2017 8:11 AM, "Joshua Katz" <planning4liberty@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Abstain

Joshua A. Katz

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

...

We have an electronic mail ballot.

*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Co-Sponsors:* Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

*Motion:* The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

I have gotten word back from Helms-Briscoe that the Hyatt has agreed to waiver of meeting room fees and to honor the convention rate of $124/night for this meeting. Daniel Hayes LNC Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair LNC At Large Member

On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:21 PM, Brett Bittner <brett.bittner@lp.org> wrote:

Aye.

Brett

**This message sent from my phone. Please excuse any typos.

...

On Apr 22, 2017 17:08, "Whitney Bilyeu" <whitneycb76@gmail.com> wrote: Yes.

Whitney Bilyeu

...

On Apr 22, 2017 8:11 AM, "Joshua Katz" <planning4liberty@gmail.com> wrote: Abstain

Joshua A. Katz

...

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

Starchild, There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt. Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 24, 2017, at 7:55 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Thank you, Daniel. That's welcome news. Just so we're clear, are you aware of any other fees or charges associated with meeting in this location that would be borne by the LP aside from the waived room fees (e.g. fees for catered food or beverages, parking, etc.)?

I have not yet seen the breakdown of costs for our last meeting in Pittsburgh, or our upcoming Kansas City in August, promised by Robert Kraus. Those numbers could be instructive by way of comparison.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

...

On Apr 24, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

I have gotten word back from Helms-Briscoe that the Hyatt has agreed to waiver of meeting room fees and to honor the convention rate of $124/night for this meeting.

Daniel Hayes LNC Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair LNC At Large Member

...

On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:21 PM, Brett Bittner <brett.bittner@lp.org> wrote:

Aye.

Brett

**This message sent from my phone. Please excuse any typos.

...

On Apr 22, 2017 17:08, "Whitney Bilyeu" <whitneycb76@gmail.com> wrote: Yes.

Whitney Bilyeu

...

On Apr 22, 2017 8:11 AM, "Joshua Katz" <planning4liberty@gmail.com> wrote: Abstain

Joshua A. Katz

...

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

---

Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

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On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel. Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom. If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000. Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future? I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck... But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not. I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense. Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

Caryn Ann, Who said anything about a dank basement? I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free. If food were unavailable for purchase on the premises, delivery is generally an option. Hotel meeting rooms do not make it certain that people can attend comfortably or that they are able to eat comfortably. There are other types of discomfort you may not be considering, for instance the discomfort of being in a sterile atmosphere lacking fresh air or one where you feel party funds are being wasted on inappropriate overpriced extras. Nor are more basic types of physical discomfort necessarily eliminated. During our last meeting I had to call the hotel staff multiple times to ask that the air condition be turned down because it was too cold (I saw you putting your blanket or wrap over yourself, so I know it wasn't just me). They took away beverages that the party presumably paid for – I still don't know how much, because as far as I know Robert has yet to supply the breakdown of the costs for the meeting, as requested and as he told me at the meeting he would – when I and others still wanted to use them (e.g. hot water for tea). Pre-set catered food menus often put people with dietary considerations on the short end of the stick. I've experienced more than once not being able to eat a full, balanced meal, or having to make special requests of hotel staff, because the menu was planned around an omnivorous diet that assumed people would want meat/dairy. Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) P.S. – On a side note, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not yet on the literal field of battle either. On May 2, 2017, at 6:02 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Starchild, I care not for the food etc but disagree on the image. We are not yet fortunately on the literal field of battle and meeting in a comfortable place with plenty of room is necessary for the most efficient use of our time and energies. We are not robots where that does not matter. I know that my mind and body are not of such that say a dank basement would work as well.

Further these spaces makes it certain that members can attend comfortably and they also are able to eat.

I don't find it unreasonable for what we get IOW.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:02 AM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

...

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000.

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

...

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org -- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

Caryn Ann, There's truth to the saying you get what you pay for, but there's at least equal truth to the observation that it pays to shop around. I'll quote here part of what I said in my response to Tim:

...a logical approach would be to let local Libertarians in New Orleans know of our interest to hold a meeting there in a space with the characteristics you mention, and give them a little while to see what they come up with. I think this should be standard operating procedure whenever we identify dates for an upcoming meeting and a city in which we wish to meet.

I agree that the cost to individual members to get to a meeting location (via Uber, etc.) is a relevant consideration when deciding where to meet, but I don't think it ought to take precedence over saving the party itself (and by extension all the members who donated that money) hundreds of dollars. Are expensive hotel meeting rooms conducive to the most number of people? I don't know that to be the case. A survey of the membership on whether they want the LNC spending money on such things or not could be instructive. It's also possible what you say may be true of our current membership, but untrue of a broader cross-section of the public to which we haven't appealed as much because practices such as holding all our conventions in upscale hotels have failed to attract them to us as different practices might have done. Safety and liability? The truth is we'll never have absolute certainty when it comes to the surroundings, including in hotels; seeking watertight guarantees of safety or whatever sounds like the mistake that statists make when they insist that there must be a government welfare safety net, must be the kind of public safety guarantees that only an aggressive State can provide (even if they are largely illusory), etc. – that any marginally lower level of assurance just won't do. But even if we were to assume (without having conducted any surveys) that most LP members are fine with the LNC spending $1000 of the party's money on catered food/beverage in order to meet in a hotel, and that expensive hotel meeting rooms are always the first choice of the largest number of potential attendees, this would not suggest to me that we should accommodate the majority's preferences 100% of the time. If as you suggest it boils down to a utilitarian decision (rather than a matter of principle in not wasting our resources, as I see it), it still seems to me that fairness, common sense, and the principle of proportional representation that Libertarians have often embraced in terms of elections dictate that we should also accommodate the minority view (if it is the minority view!) for some percentage of our meetings. Do you disagree? Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF On May 2, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Starchild,

==Who said anything about a dank basement?==

It was an example. There is a truth to the saying you get what you pay for.

== I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free.==

To suitably address our needs? I doubt it. Possible? Perhaps. But I do know that I have limited time and I am not going to volunteer to find it nor supervise or followup on people to do it. We would likely spend more than that in pursuing it. If an option easily pops up, I want to go for it, but I know from just trying to find accomodations for our state board in its meetings, it is easier said than done. And there are other considerations such as ease to hotel. We already pay our own way, I do not feel it is unreasonable for the Party to consider not making us have to Uber or pay even more to another site. I find this a small price to pay for what we are guaranteed to get (and have legal recourse if we don't). I would like to see the affiliates more involved but that is another story.

When it comes to groups, particularly mixed groups, it is actually a utilitarian decision. A professional clean spacious hotel meeting space is most conducive to the most number of people. Yes, it is always cold for me everywhere so I plan accordingly. I also have diet issues and sometimes not to my liking but it is generally conducive to the most number of people.

I just don't find it unreasonable a price for a large room, with the technology we may need, with the conference table we need, with the space we need, and that people will feel comfortable going to in general, particularly alone. Perhaps I am sensitive to the issue that some female members (and perhaps male members too, I can only speak from what I know) are leary about other environments. A hotel is safe, professional, and functional. (there are also legal liability considerations that I really don't care to get into but if we are inviting people to a meeting, and we are not absolutely certain of the surroundings etc we could incur liability). A hotel conference room is a good safe bet. Overall, after taking into consideration time factors as well (time is money), I don't find it unreasonable.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Caryn Ann,

Who said anything about a dank basement? I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free. If food were unavailable for purchase on the premises, delivery is generally an option. Hotel meeting rooms do not make it certain that people can attend comfortably or that they are able to eat comfortably. There are other types of discomfort you may not be considering, for instance the discomfort of being in a sterile atmosphere lacking fresh air or one where you feel party funds are being wasted on inappropriate overpriced extras. Nor are more basic types of physical discomfort necessarily eliminated. During our last meeting I had to call the hotel staff multiple times to ask that the air condition be turned down because it was too cold (I saw you putting your blanket or wrap over yourself, so I know it wasn't just me). They took away beverages that the party presumably paid for – I still don't know how much, because as far as I know Robert has yet to supply the breakdown of the costs for the meeting, as requested and as he told me at the meeting he would – when I and others still wanted to use them (e.g. hot water for tea). Pre-set catered food menus often put people with dietary considerations on the short end of the stick. I've experienced more than once not being able to eat a full, balanced meal, or having to make special requests of hotel staff, because the menu was planned around an omnivorous diet that assumed people would want meat/dairy.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild )))

P.S. – On a side note, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not yet on the literal field of battle either.

On May 2, 2017, at 6:02 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

Starchild, I care not for the food etc but disagree on the image. We are not yet fortunately on the literal field of battle and meeting in a comfortable place with plenty of room is necessary for the most efficient use of our time and energies. We are not robots where that does not matter. I know that my mind and body are not of such that say a dank basement would work as well.

Further these spaces makes it certain that members can attend comfortably and they also are able to eat.

I don't find it unreasonable for what we get IOW.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:02 AM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

...

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000.

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

...

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org -- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

I wasn't suggesting that minority preferences should be given equal weight, Caryn Ann. And of course in reality you don't prefer nudist meetings, and nobody is suggesting the LNC should meet in the nude, lol! In the case of such extreme and unlikely hypotheticals, perhaps you're right that a majority whose feelings were strong enough should be able to enforce their preferences all the time – but if they feel that strongly, they should also be prepared to pay any associated expenses themselves in cases where a proportional approach would otherwise have accommodated the minority's preferences, instead of requiring the minority to further subsidize preferences with which they disagree. I'm not really sure why you'd logically feel any safer from someone by whom you felt threatened in a hotel meeting room than in an Arby's – in either case somebody can readily walk in off the street, and when seconds count I expect hotel security would be just minutes away! – but it may not be worth getting into the particulars. Calling my concerns a "pet issue" sounds dismissive. Raising a concern is not mutually exclusive with doing something. I've in fact suggested a general plan of action in my response to Tim that I quoted below. Do I have to print it out and put it in a binder and request time on the agenda for it at a meeting in order to satisfy you? Why insist that I personally find a location, instead of using local activists on the ground, unless it's just about having an excuse not to support reform? If we are discussing meeting in San Francisco where I live, I will certainly attempt to find a free space here. Otherwise, I think it makes sense to rely on locals who know their areas best. I haven't heard any arguments why it shouldn't be our standard procedure to solicit proposals for cost-free meeting locations from our members on the dates when we've decided we want to meet, in the cities where we want to meet. Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF On May 2, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

I actually do disagree. I might prefer nudist meetings. I do not think my minority preference should be given equal weight. Conducive meetings simply don't work that way.

We have spoken hours on this and it is simply an area we disagree on.

I would suggest that for the next meeting you might want to come with a proposal in hand that answers questions and concerns. I don't believe much in talking about my pet issues (we all have them), I believe in doing. I care about Party history. So I did something. This is a big concern of yours.... prove that it is better by doing the organizing for the next one. It might help. Debating so far isn't changing any minds.

If this were a big concern of mine, I would be setting out with proposals and plans to prove them. The entire LNC gets a larger discount on room blocks than they pay on the room. Seeing how we pay our own way, again, I don't find it an unreasonable tradeoff and while there is no such thing as perfect safety, not many women (50% of the population) who travel alone are going to feel safe and secure with the type of scenario you are proposing. Hotels provide a layer of safety that rightly or wrongly is a large factor.

Last meeting a certain member had promised to come that caused me concern. It turned out not to happen but if we were simply meeting at the local Arby's or whatever, I would not have come nor would it have been responsible to our members.

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Caryn Ann,

There's truth to the saying you get what you pay for, but there's at least equal truth to the observation that it pays to shop around. I'll quote here part of what I said in my response to Tim:

...

...a logical approach would be to let local Libertarians in New Orleans know of our interest to hold a meeting there in a space with the characteristics you mention, and give them a little while to see what they come up with. I think this should be standard operating procedure whenever we identify dates for an upcoming meeting and a city in which we wish to meet.

I agree that the cost to individual members to get to a meeting location (via Uber, etc.) is a relevant consideration when deciding where to meet, but I don't think it ought to take precedence over saving the party itself (and by extension all the members who donated that money) hundreds of dollars.

Are expensive hotel meeting rooms conducive to the most number of people? I don't know that to be the case. A survey of the membership on whether they want the LNC spending money on such things or not could be instructive. It's also possible what you say may be true of our current membership, but untrue of a broader cross-section of the public to which we haven't appealed as much because practices such as holding all our conventions in upscale hotels have failed to attract them to us as different practices might have done. Safety and liability? The truth is we'll never have absolute certainty when it comes to the surroundings, including in hotels; seeking watertight guarantees of safety or whatever sounds like the mistake that statists make when they insist that there must be a government welfare safety net, must be the kind of public safety guarantees that only an aggressive State can provide (even if they are largely illusory), etc. – that any marginally lower level of assurance just won't do.

But even if we were to assume (without having conducted any surveys) that most LP members are fine with the LNC spending $1000 of the party's money on catered food/beverage in order to meet in a hotel, and that expensive hotel meeting rooms are always the first choice of the largest number of potential attendees, this would not suggest to me that we should accommodate the majority's preferences 100% of the time. If as you suggest it boils down to a utilitarian decision (rather than a matter of principle in not wasting our resources, as I see it), it still seems to me that fairness, common sense, and the principle of proportional representation that Libertarians have often embraced in terms of elections dictate that we should also accommodate the minority view (if it is the minority view!) for some percentage of our meetings. Do you disagree?

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 2, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

Starchild,

==Who said anything about a dank basement?==

It was an example. There is a truth to the saying you get what you pay for.

== I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free.==

To suitably address our needs? I doubt it. Possible? Perhaps. But I do know that I have limited time and I am not going to volunteer to find it nor supervise or followup on people to do it. We would likely spend more than that in pursuing it. If an option easily pops up, I want to go for it, but I know from just trying to find accomodations for our state board in its meetings, it is easier said than done. And there are other considerations such as ease to hotel. We already pay our own way, I do not feel it is unreasonable for the Party to consider not making us have to Uber or pay even more to another site. I find this a small price to pay for what we are guaranteed to get (and have legal recourse if we don't). I would like to see the affiliates more involved but that is another story.

When it comes to groups, particularly mixed groups, it is actually a utilitarian decision. A professional clean spacious hotel meeting space is most conducive to the most number of people. Yes, it is always cold for me everywhere so I plan accordingly. I also have diet issues and sometimes not to my liking but it is generally conducive to the most number of people.

I just don't find it unreasonable a price for a large room, with the technology we may need, with the conference table we need, with the space we need, and that people will feel comfortable going to in general, particularly alone. Perhaps I am sensitive to the issue that some female members (and perhaps male members too, I can only speak from what I know) are leary about other environments. A hotel is safe, professional, and functional. (there are also legal liability considerations that I really don't care to get into but if we are inviting people to a meeting, and we are not absolutely certain of the surroundings etc we could incur liability). A hotel conference room is a good safe bet. Overall, after taking into consideration time factors as well (time is money), I don't find it unreasonable.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Caryn Ann,

Who said anything about a dank basement? I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free. If food were unavailable for purchase on the premises, delivery is generally an option. Hotel meeting rooms do not make it certain that people can attend comfortably or that they are able to eat comfortably. There are other types of discomfort you may not be considering, for instance the discomfort of being in a sterile atmosphere lacking fresh air or one where you feel party funds are being wasted on inappropriate overpriced extras. Nor are more basic types of physical discomfort necessarily eliminated. During our last meeting I had to call the hotel staff multiple times to ask that the air condition be turned down because it was too cold (I saw you putting your blanket or wrap over yourself, so I know it wasn't just me). They took away beverages that the party presumably paid for – I still don't know how much, because as far as I know Robert has yet to supply the breakdown of the costs for the meeting, as requested and as he told me at the meeting he would – when I and others still wanted to use them (e.g. hot water for tea). Pre-set catered food menus often put people with dietary considerations on the short end of the stick. I've experienced more than once not being able to eat a full, balanced meal, or having to make special requests of hotel staff, because the menu was planned around an omnivorous diet that assumed people would want meat/dairy.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild )))

P.S. – On a side note, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not yet on the literal field of battle either.

On May 2, 2017, at 6:02 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

Starchild, I care not for the food etc but disagree on the image. We are not yet fortunately on the literal field of battle and meeting in a comfortable place with plenty of room is necessary for the most efficient use of our time and energies. We are not robots where that does not matter. I know that my mind and body are not of such that say a dank basement would work as well.

Further these spaces makes it certain that members can attend comfortably and they also are able to eat.

I don't find it unreasonable for what we get IOW.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:02 AM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

...

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000.

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

...

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org -- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

PS: I said "pet issue" and said "we all have them." That was intended so it was not dismissive. I have many pet issues. I share one with you. Transparency. On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually Starchild you don't know my preferences vis a vis a nudist meeting.

You may not understand why the safety thing is a thing (or you might find it unreasonable) but I just did an informal discussion amongst other female party members and they felt quite strongly the same way.

I have a lot of work to do, we are not going to change each other's minds, so I am going to leave off here.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

I wasn't suggesting that minority preferences should be given *equal* weight, Caryn Ann. And of course in reality you *don't* prefer nudist meetings, and nobody is suggesting the LNC should meet in the nude, lol! In the case of such extreme and unlikely hypotheticals, perhaps you're right that a majority whose feelings were strong enough *should* be able to enforce their preferences all the time – but if they feel that strongly, they should also be prepared to pay any associated expenses themselves in cases where a proportional approach would otherwise have accommodated the minority's preferences, instead of requiring the minority to further subsidize preferences with which they disagree.

I'm not really sure why you'd logically feel any safer from someone by whom you felt threatened in a hotel meeting room than in an Arby's – in either case somebody can readily walk in off the street, and when seconds count I expect hotel security would be just minutes away! – but it may not be worth getting into the particulars.

Calling my concerns a "pet issue" sounds dismissive. Raising a concern is not mutually exclusive with doing something. I've in fact suggested a general plan of action in my response to Tim that I quoted below. Do I have to print it out and put it in a binder and request time on the agenda for it at a meeting in order to satisfy you? Why insist that I personally find a location, instead of using local activists on the ground, unless it's just about having an excuse not to support reform? If we are discussing meeting in San Francisco where I live, I will certainly attempt to find a free space here. Otherwise, I think it makes sense to rely on locals who know their areas best. I haven't heard any arguments why it *shouldn't* be our standard procedure to solicit proposals for cost-free meeting locations from our members on the dates when we've decided we want to meet, in the cities where we want to meet.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 2, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

I actually do disagree. I might prefer nudist meetings. I do not think my minority preference should be given equal weight. Conducive meetings simply don't work that way.

We have spoken hours on this and it is simply an area we disagree on.

I would suggest that for the next meeting you might want to come with a proposal in hand that answers questions and concerns. I don't believe much in talking about my pet issues (we all have them), I believe in doing. I care about Party history. So I did something. This is a big concern of yours.... prove that it is better by doing the organizing for the next one. It might help. Debating so far isn't changing any minds.

If this were a big concern of mine, I would be setting out with proposals and plans to prove them. The entire LNC gets a larger discount on room blocks than they pay on the room. Seeing how we pay our own way, again, I don't find it an unreasonable tradeoff and while there is no such thing as perfect safety, not many women (50% of the population) who travel alone are going to feel safe and secure with the type of scenario you are proposing. Hotels provide a layer of safety that rightly or wrongly is a large factor.

Last meeting a certain member had promised to come that caused me concern. It turned out not to happen but if we were simply meeting at the local Arby's or whatever, I would not have come nor would it have been responsible to our members.

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

Caryn Ann,

There's truth to the saying you get what you pay for, but there's at least equal truth to the observation that it pays to shop around. I'll quote here part of what I said in my response to Tim:

*...a logical approach would be to let local Libertarians in New Orleans know of our interest to hold a meeting there in a space with the characteristics you mention, and give them a little while to see what they come up with. I think this should be standard operating procedure whenever we identify dates for an upcoming meeting and a city in which we wish to meet.*

I agree that the cost to individual members to get to a meeting location (via Uber, etc.) is a relevant consideration when deciding where to meet, but I don't think it ought to take precedence over saving the party itself (and by extension all the members who donated that money) hundreds of dollars.

*Are* expensive hotel meeting rooms conducive to the most number of people? I don't know that to be the case. A survey of the membership on whether they want the LNC spending money on such things or not could be instructive. It's also possible what you say may be true of our current membership, but untrue of a broader cross-section of the public to which we haven't appealed as much because practices such as holding all our conventions in upscale hotels have failed to attract them to us as different practices might have done. Safety and liability? The truth is we'll *never* have absolute certainty when it comes to the surroundings, including in hotels; seeking watertight *guarantees* of safety or whatever sounds like the mistake that statists make when they insist that there *must* be a government welfare safety net, *must* be the kind of public safety guarantees that only an aggressive State can provide (even if they are largely illusory), etc. – that any marginally lower level of assurance just won't do.

But even if we were to assume (without having conducted any surveys) that most LP members are fine with the LNC spending $1000 of the party's money on catered food/beverage in order to meet in a hotel, and that expensive hotel meeting rooms are always the first choice of the largest number of potential attendees, this would not suggest to me that we should accommodate the majority's preferences 100% of the time. If as you suggest it boils down to a utilitarian decision (rather than a matter of principle in not wasting our resources, as I see it), it still seems to me that fairness, common sense, and the principle of proportional representation that Libertarians have often embraced in terms of elections dictate that we should also accommodate the minority view (if it *is* the minority view!) for some percentage of our meetings. Do you disagree?

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 2, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Starchild,

==Who said anything about a *dank* basement?==

It was an example. There is a truth to the saying you get what you pay for.

== I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free.==

To suitably address our needs? I doubt it. Possible? Perhaps. But I do know that I have limited time and I am not going to volunteer to find it nor supervise or followup on people to do it. We would likely spend more than that in pursuing it. If an option easily pops up, I want to go for it, but I know from just trying to find accomodations for our state board in its meetings, it is easier said than done. And there are other considerations such as ease to hotel. We already pay our own way, I do not feel it is unreasonable for the Party to consider not making us have to Uber or pay even more to another site. I find this a small price to pay for what we are guaranteed to get (and have legal recourse if we don't). I would like to see the affiliates more involved but that is another story.

When it comes to groups, particularly mixed groups, it is actually a utilitarian decision. A professional clean spacious hotel meeting space is most conducive to the most number of people. Yes, it is always cold for me everywhere so I plan accordingly. I also have diet issues and sometimes not to my liking but it is generally conducive to the most number of people.

I just don't find it unreasonable a price for a large room, with the technology we may need, with the conference table we need, with the space we need, and that people will feel comfortable going to in general, particularly alone. Perhaps I am sensitive to the issue that some female members (and perhaps male members too, I can only speak from what I know) are leary about other environments. A hotel is safe, professional, and functional. (there are also legal liability considerations that I really don't care to get into but if we are inviting people to a meeting, and we are not absolutely certain of the surroundings etc we could incur liability). A hotel conference room is a good safe bet. Overall, after taking into consideration time factors as well (time is money), I don't find it unreasonable.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

Caryn Ann,

Who said anything about a *dank* basement? I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free. If food were unavailable for purchase on the premises, delivery is generally an option. Hotel meeting rooms do *not* make it certain that people can attend comfortably or that they are able to eat comfortably. There are other types of discomfort you may not be considering, for instance the discomfort of being in a sterile atmosphere lacking fresh air or one where you feel party funds are being wasted on inappropriate overpriced extras. Nor are more basic types of physical discomfort necessarily eliminated. During our last meeting I had to call the hotel staff multiple times to ask that the air condition be turned down because it was too cold (I saw you putting your blanket or wrap over yourself, so I know it wasn't just me). They took away beverages that the party presumably paid for – I still don't know how much, because as far as I know Robert has yet to supply the breakdown of the costs for the meeting, as requested and as he told me at the meeting he would – when I and others still wanted to use them (e.g. hot water for tea). Pre-set catered food menus often put people with dietary considerations on the short end of the stick. I've experienced more than once not being able to eat a full, balanced meal, or having to make special requests of hotel staff, because the menu was planned around an omnivorous diet that assumed people would want meat/dairy.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild )))

P.S. – On a side note, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not yet on the literal field of battle either.

On May 2, 2017, at 6:02 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Starchild, I care not for the food etc but disagree on the image. We are not yet fortunately on the literal field of battle and meeting in a comfortable place with plenty of room is necessary for the most efficient use of our time and energies. We are not robots where that does not matter. I know that my mind and body are not of such that say a dank basement would work as well.

Further these spaces makes it certain that members can attend comfortably and they also are able to eat.

I don't find it unreasonable for what we get IOW.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:02 AM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, *meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.*

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her *individual* funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the *collective* resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are *not* necessary. *There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000. *

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was *being* serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – *doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated.* They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

* I vote no*, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and *instead* *get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense*.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

...

We have an electronic mail ballot.

*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Co-Sponsors:* Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

*Motion:* The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*

Okay, but speaking of transparency Caryn Ann, we do not have transparency about LNC meeting costs. We typically find out the full breakdown of the costs of these meetings after the fact, if at all, rather than at the time we vote on locations (if we even vote, and a location is not simply selected for us by staff or the chair). That is another problem with our current procedures. I believe that if LNC members saw the costs upfront, and had an honest debate comparing various alternatives, we would probably save the party considerable money. It's easier to approve or ignore unjustified expenses when they are kept secret. I commend Daniel Hayes for being transparent in reporting the $1000 number in reference to the New Orleans meeting hotel prior to the conclusion of voting, but that has not been the norm. I was not saying a desire for safety at our meetings is unreasonable! I was questioning whether you'd really be safer in a hotel meeting room than meeting at a local restaurant where the room was free or much less expensive. Finally, it's true that I don't know your nudity preferences; I was simply making an educated guess. If I was wrong and you would prefer that we hold our meetings in the nude, please feel free to correct me. :-) Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF On May 2, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

PS: I said "pet issue" and said "we all have them." That was intended so it was not dismissive. I have many pet issues. I share one with you. Transparency.

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote: Actually Starchild you don't know my preferences vis a vis a nudist meeting.

You may not understand why the safety thing is a thing (or you might find it unreasonable) but I just did an informal discussion amongst other female party members and they felt quite strongly the same way.

I have a lot of work to do, we are not going to change each other's minds, so I am going to leave off here.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

I wasn't suggesting that minority preferences should be given equal weight, Caryn Ann. And of course in reality you don't prefer nudist meetings, and nobody is suggesting the LNC should meet in the nude, lol! In the case of such extreme and unlikely hypotheticals, perhaps you're right that a majority whose feelings were strong enough should be able to enforce their preferences all the time – but if they feel that strongly, they should also be prepared to pay any associated expenses themselves in cases where a proportional approach would otherwise have accommodated the minority's preferences, instead of requiring the minority to further subsidize preferences with which they disagree.

I'm not really sure why you'd logically feel any safer from someone by whom you felt threatened in a hotel meeting room than in an Arby's – in either case somebody can readily walk in off the street, and when seconds count I expect hotel security would be just minutes away! – but it may not be worth getting into the particulars.

Calling my concerns a "pet issue" sounds dismissive. Raising a concern is not mutually exclusive with doing something. I've in fact suggested a general plan of action in my response to Tim that I quoted below. Do I have to print it out and put it in a binder and request time on the agenda for it at a meeting in order to satisfy you? Why insist that I personally find a location, instead of using local activists on the ground, unless it's just about having an excuse not to support reform? If we are discussing meeting in San Francisco where I live, I will certainly attempt to find a free space here. Otherwise, I think it makes sense to rely on locals who know their areas best. I haven't heard any arguments why it shouldn't be our standard procedure to solicit proposals for cost-free meeting locations from our members on the dates when we've decided we want to meet, in the cities where we want to meet.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 2, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

I actually do disagree. I might prefer nudist meetings. I do not think my minority preference should be given equal weight. Conducive meetings simply don't work that way.

We have spoken hours on this and it is simply an area we disagree on.

I would suggest that for the next meeting you might want to come with a proposal in hand that answers questions and concerns. I don't believe much in talking about my pet issues (we all have them), I believe in doing. I care about Party history. So I did something. This is a big concern of yours.... prove that it is better by doing the organizing for the next one. It might help. Debating so far isn't changing any minds.

If this were a big concern of mine, I would be setting out with proposals and plans to prove them. The entire LNC gets a larger discount on room blocks than they pay on the room. Seeing how we pay our own way, again, I don't find it an unreasonable tradeoff and while there is no such thing as perfect safety, not many women (50% of the population) who travel alone are going to feel safe and secure with the type of scenario you are proposing. Hotels provide a layer of safety that rightly or wrongly is a large factor.

Last meeting a certain member had promised to come that caused me concern. It turned out not to happen but if we were simply meeting at the local Arby's or whatever, I would not have come nor would it have been responsible to our members.

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Caryn Ann,

There's truth to the saying you get what you pay for, but there's at least equal truth to the observation that it pays to shop around. I'll quote here part of what I said in my response to Tim:

...

...a logical approach would be to let local Libertarians in New Orleans know of our interest to hold a meeting there in a space with the characteristics you mention, and give them a little while to see what they come up with. I think this should be standard operating procedure whenever we identify dates for an upcoming meeting and a city in which we wish to meet.

I agree that the cost to individual members to get to a meeting location (via Uber, etc.) is a relevant consideration when deciding where to meet, but I don't think it ought to take precedence over saving the party itself (and by extension all the members who donated that money) hundreds of dollars.

Are expensive hotel meeting rooms conducive to the most number of people? I don't know that to be the case. A survey of the membership on whether they want the LNC spending money on such things or not could be instructive. It's also possible what you say may be true of our current membership, but untrue of a broader cross-section of the public to which we haven't appealed as much because practices such as holding all our conventions in upscale hotels have failed to attract them to us as different practices might have done. Safety and liability? The truth is we'll never have absolute certainty when it comes to the surroundings, including in hotels; seeking watertight guarantees of safety or whatever sounds like the mistake that statists make when they insist that there must be a government welfare safety net, must be the kind of public safety guarantees that only an aggressive State can provide (even if they are largely illusory), etc. – that any marginally lower level of assurance just won't do.

But even if we were to assume (without having conducted any surveys) that most LP members are fine with the LNC spending $1000 of the party's money on catered food/beverage in order to meet in a hotel, and that expensive hotel meeting rooms are always the first choice of the largest number of potential attendees, this would not suggest to me that we should accommodate the majority's preferences 100% of the time. If as you suggest it boils down to a utilitarian decision (rather than a matter of principle in not wasting our resources, as I see it), it still seems to me that fairness, common sense, and the principle of proportional representation that Libertarians have often embraced in terms of elections dictate that we should also accommodate the minority view (if it is the minority view!) for some percentage of our meetings. Do you disagree?

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 2, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

Starchild,

==Who said anything about a dank basement?==

It was an example. There is a truth to the saying you get what you pay for.

== I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free.==

To suitably address our needs? I doubt it. Possible? Perhaps. But I do know that I have limited time and I am not going to volunteer to find it nor supervise or followup on people to do it. We would likely spend more than that in pursuing it. If an option easily pops up, I want to go for it, but I know from just trying to find accomodations for our state board in its meetings, it is easier said than done. And there are other considerations such as ease to hotel. We already pay our own way, I do not feel it is unreasonable for the Party to consider not making us have to Uber or pay even more to another site. I find this a small price to pay for what we are guaranteed to get (and have legal recourse if we don't). I would like to see the affiliates more involved but that is another story.

When it comes to groups, particularly mixed groups, it is actually a utilitarian decision. A professional clean spacious hotel meeting space is most conducive to the most number of people. Yes, it is always cold for me everywhere so I plan accordingly. I also have diet issues and sometimes not to my liking but it is generally conducive to the most number of people.

I just don't find it unreasonable a price for a large room, with the technology we may need, with the conference table we need, with the space we need, and that people will feel comfortable going to in general, particularly alone. Perhaps I am sensitive to the issue that some female members (and perhaps male members too, I can only speak from what I know) are leary about other environments. A hotel is safe, professional, and functional. (there are also legal liability considerations that I really don't care to get into but if we are inviting people to a meeting, and we are not absolutely certain of the surroundings etc we could incur liability). A hotel conference room is a good safe bet. Overall, after taking into consideration time factors as well (time is money), I don't find it unreasonable.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

Caryn Ann,

Who said anything about a dank basement? I suspect that a comfortable place with sufficient space could be found for much less than $1000 in obligations, if not free. If food were unavailable for purchase on the premises, delivery is generally an option. Hotel meeting rooms do not make it certain that people can attend comfortably or that they are able to eat comfortably. There are other types of discomfort you may not be considering, for instance the discomfort of being in a sterile atmosphere lacking fresh air or one where you feel party funds are being wasted on inappropriate overpriced extras. Nor are more basic types of physical discomfort necessarily eliminated. During our last meeting I had to call the hotel staff multiple times to ask that the air condition be turned down because it was too cold (I saw you putting your blanket or wrap over yourself, so I know it wasn't just me). They took away beverages that the party presumably paid for – I still don't know how much, because as far as I know Robert has yet to supply the breakdown of the costs for the meeting, as requested and as he told me at the meeting he would – when I and others still wanted to use them (e.g. hot water for tea). Pre-set catered food menus often put people with dietary considerations on the short end of the stick. I've experienced more than once not being able to eat a full, balanced meal, or having to make special requests of hotel staff, because the menu was planned around an omnivorous diet that assumed people would want meat/dairy.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild )))

P.S. – On a side note, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not yet on the literal field of battle either.

On May 2, 2017, at 6:02 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

...

Starchild, I care not for the food etc but disagree on the image. We are not yet fortunately on the literal field of battle and meeting in a comfortable place with plenty of room is necessary for the most efficient use of our time and energies. We are not robots where that does not matter. I know that my mind and body are not of such that say a dank basement would work as well.

Further these spaces makes it certain that members can attend comfortably and they also are able to eat.

I don't find it unreasonable for what we get IOW.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:02 AM Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

...

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000.

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

...

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org -- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

-- In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles: We defend your rights And oppose the use of force Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

I'm not familiar with the area myself Tim, but I think a logical approach would be to let local Libertarians in New Orleans know of our interest to hold a meeting there in a space with the characteristics you mention, and give them a little while to see what they come up with. I think this should be standard operating procedure whenever we identify dates for an upcoming meeting and a city in which we wish to meet. Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF On May 2, 2017, at 6:29 AM, Tim Hagan wrote:

What alternative location are you suggesting? Is it within walking distance from the Hyatt, so we can easily include a tour of its facility? How large is the location's meeting space, and does it have Wifi?

Tim Hagan On Tuesday, May 2, 2017, 3:01 AM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Apr 30, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:

...

Starchild,

There is a $1,000 F&B(catering) requirement associated with the use of the room. Nick had said a working lunch was probable for the budget meeting and I passed the specs as per consultation with Robert on to our HelmsBriscoe rep who coordinated it with the Hyatt.

Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member Convention Oversight Committee Vice-Chair

Assuming Daniel Hayes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, meeting at this location would cost the party $1000 in food and beverage purchase obligations to the hotel.

Certainly I accept any person's choice in spending his or her individual funds in any way that s/he chooses, and I am, for better or more likely for worse, probably as guilty as many libertarians of putting resources toward my own sensual gratification which I could put toward advancing the freedom movement. But regardless of our individual preferences or habits in this regard, as representatives of the members of the Libertarian Party I think we owe it to our members to spend the collective resources they have entrusted to us on advancing the cause of freedom.

If there were some reason why expensive hotel rooms were truly necessary in order for us to meet, I would by all means support using party money to pay for those rooms, but they are not necessary. There are plenty of places where we can reasonably meet and incur $0 in financial obligations instead of $1000.

Some have made an "image" argument – that we need to spend money to meet in upscale locations in order to look "serious" or "professional" or what-not. I do not think this makes us look serious about fighting for freedom. When the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence pledged their "lives, fortunes, and sacred honor", that wasn't just trying to look serious, it was being serious. I won't say they were being "professional"; it seems almost insulting to the memory of those who led that previous struggle for American independence to use the term in relation to their efforts. Is the struggle we are now engaged in any less important and critical for the future?

I believe the path to freedom lies through manifesting as agents of change, not by emulating the well-heeled organizations that characterize the political establishment – doing things that make us look more like an establishment organization or the party of the wealthy are contra-indicated. They drive away our natural supporters who, for good reasons, mistrust and oppose that establishment. If it walks like a duck...

But even more than how it looks, is what it is. Former vice-president Joe Biden has said many dumb things, but I've heard him credited with saying at least one wise thing. He reportedly said, don't tell me what your values are – show me your budget, and I'll tell you what your values are. Are you comfortable with what spending party money on hotel-catered food for meetings of party leaders when it isn't necessary tells people about our values? I am not.

I vote no, and encourage my fellow National Committee members to vote this down and instead get behind a motion to meet at a different location in New Orleans that would not incur such an unjustifiable expense.

Love & Liberty, ((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee (415) 625-FREE @StarchildSF

On May 1, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:

...

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote: We have an electronic mail ballot.

Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.

Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

Motion: The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org _______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

Abstain On May 2, 2017 12:38 AM, "Alicia Mattson" <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

I vote yes.

-Alicia

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson@gmail.com> wrote:

...

We have an electronic mail ballot.

*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 1, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Co-Sponsors:* Hayes, Harlos, Goldstein, Bilyeu, Redpath

*Motion:* The 2017 LNC budget meeting shall be held at the New Orleans Hyatt Regency on December 9th and 10th, 2017.

-Alicia

_______________________________________________ Lnc-business mailing list Lnc-business@hq.lp.org http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org