Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention. -- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
I note that page 34 ballot number should be 190310-5 which will be reflected in V2. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
My comments and suggestions: Page 12, last paragraph, recommend changing "will be concluded over the next two weeks" to "will be conducted over the next two weeks", unless if Mr. Sarwark used the word concluded. Page 22, first paragraph, as a Pastafarian, I request "Almighty God and all of creation moved" be change to "The Flying Spaghetti Monster moved". Page 23, under Evening Adjournment, the second paragraph, change "into effect that at 2 a.m." to "into effect at 2 a.m.". Page 25, last paragraph, should "turned in his grave" be "rolled over in his grave"? Page 35, Region 1 Report, has a double period. --- Tim Hagan Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee On 2019-04-16 02:27, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
Thank you! On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 AM Tim Hagan via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
My comments and suggestions:
Page 12, last paragraph, recommend changing "will be concluded over the next two weeks" to "will be conducted over the next two weeks", unless if Mr. Sarwark used the word concluded.
Page 22, first paragraph, as a Pastafarian, I request "Almighty God and all of creation moved" be change to "The Flying Spaghetti Monster moved".
Page 23, under Evening Adjournment, the second paragraph, change "into effect that at 2 a.m." to "into effect at 2 a.m.".
Page 25, last paragraph, should "turned in his grave" be "rolled over in his grave"?
Page 35, Region 1 Report, has a double period.
--- Tim Hagan Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
On 2019-04-16 02:27, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
Below are my comments regarding version 1 of the March 9-10 LNC minutes: APPENDICES: Appendix F – The secretary’s report included here seems to be version 1, which doesn’t yet incorporate the changes we already saw in version 2, but the minutes elsewhere indicate there is another version 3 in existence. Appendix F – These low-resolution images of pages from a PDF document are particularly painful to try to review for content. The tables of OpaVote results, in particular, are completely unreadable. I cannot distinguish the numbers of the listed rankings. Appendix I – Page 110 has a rogue header, suddenly showing as Appendix G in the middle of Appendix I. Appendix N – Page 126, in the middle of the report of the Historical Preservation Committee suddenly has a page from the Convention Oversight Committee inserted in place of page 2 of the HPC report. Appendices AA and BB – Like my comment on the tables of OpaVote results, these graphic images of tiny-font tables are pretty unreadable, and thus can’t easily be reviewed for accuracy. If you make the column titles vertical, that will save you a lot of white space and probably allow a larger font size, but the main issue is embedding these as graphics rather than as text or as other more suitable objects. Appendix BB – p. 185-186 are missing the header Appendix W – This report is missing the Wisconsin supplement which was also sent separately. MAIN BODY OF MINUTES: p. 40 – Mr. Kraus is the author of the financial reports in Appendix E. p. 38 – Footnote 26 repeats the statement that Mr. Fishman became “ineligible” for the CVPC because he was selected as the new Executive Director. In an email thread started on 3/28/19 titled “Convention Voting Process Committee”, I posted on 3/31 to say that I saw nothing in our rules which made him ineligible. Mr. Fishman then chose to voluntarily resign instead. p. 38 – Regarding Population of the CVPC, it lists 10 names who were supposedly elected to a 9-member committee. Kevin Moore did not apply for that committee, and Appendix BB does not indicate that anyone cast a write-in vote for him, yet this reports he was elected to the committee. He is also listed as being elected in the table of numbered motions on p. 40. p. 38 – You could add that we entered executive session at 12:35 p.m. p. 37, footnote 25 and p. 38, footnote 26 both use “effected” rather than “affected”. p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes. It was just an offhand joke, and the sense of the LNC is adequately reflected by the formal 11-4 vote on Dr. Lark’s motion to postpone, so I think it’s covered already without the footnote. p. 26 – There is a paragraph which reads, “Without objection, Mr. Redpath moved to amend his prior amendment to apply to both the Convention Voting Process Committee and the Membership Support Committee.” (Mr. Sarwark phrased the motion as a suspension of the rules since time had expired already.) But that motion was actually not adopted at that point in the meeting. Rather the chair ruled it to be out of order until such time as the pending amendment was resolved. Mr. Redpath did later make the motion again, and it was adopted without objection at that later time, but in the minutes it belongs after the p. 27 sentence, “This amendment PASSED with a roll call vote of 13-1-1. [190309-3]” Note this change also means the “as secondarily amended” should be removed from p. 26 since the secondary amendment was ruled to be out of order, and footnote 22 becomes awfully redundant when the motion is moved to its new home on p. 27. p. 24-25 – In numerous places in these minutes (not limited to these two pages), there are references to “The Hospers’ Project”. It is not a project which is owned by or is being completed by Mr. Hospers, as he died 8 years ago, so the possessive nature of that phrasing doesn’t seem to be warranted unless possibly it is other members of the Hospers family doing the project?? Otherwise, it seems that it should be “The Hospers Project” without any apostrophe. There are two instances in the paragraph where the possessive apostrophe is appropriate (“anniversary of John Hospers’ book” and “how Mr. Hospers’ tradition has already been carried on”). However, it doesn’t seem to fit in the section title, the motion, and various other references in the agenda, document appendix, table of numbered motions, etc. p. 23 – Regarding the evening adjournment, you could add the time at which the LNC adjourned for the day, which was 5:15 p.m. p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question. p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count. p. 18 – I noticed that this set of minutes has a number of RONR references inserted, sometimes in the body of the minutes like on this page and others as footnotes. Past minutes during this term have been also extensively footnoted with policy manual references and a smaller number of RONR references. [Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion. Now that you’re writing the draft and could choose to not do the thing to which you previously objected, the RONR references are seemingly no longer objectionable. Besides the rule references, the minutes contain large volumes of opinion in the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc. When I advocated against including those, your position was that it’s important for (buzzword alert!) transparency, for informing the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom”. p. 17 – I have previously argued against including general debate commentary in the minutes. However, the LNC this term has previously declined to remove such material, so if it’s going to be there... Under the motion I introduced for the COC to amend PM 2.03.12, this draft records only the opinion of two staff members in opposition to the motion, but none of the comments in favor of it. I think the best solution is to delete the paragraph containing the staff comments. If it is to remain, however, I would like to add before that paragraph: “Ms. Mattson summarized data she had previously sent to the LNC, showing that the cash collected for the 2018 convention had been instead used to fund deficit spending in general party operations, and that the same thing is happening with funds already received for the 2020 convention.” Following Mr. Merced’s motion to postpone, I would like to add: “Ms. Mattson explained that the COC expects to begin selling 2020 packages before this motion would be revisited, and delaying the fix would merely allow more funds to be borrowed-from-but-not-repaid-to the convention event.” p. 16 – Footnote 17 makes hay of an RONR suggestion to avoid the word “defer” due to its vagueness, and instead say “postpone”. If someone were to defer an item to a specific time, I don’t understand why the RONR authors think that is vague…but that’s an issue with that sentence in RONR, and I digress… Anyway, I noticed at least 6 other times in the minutes that you used the word “deferred” when referring to something which had been postponed. ;-) Do you want to change those also? p. 15 – The motion adopted at the meeting was to approve version 8 of the December 1-2, 2018 minutes, but this draft says version 9. I’ve not seen a version 9, if such a thing exists. The first version of the secretary’s report indicated intent to move to approve version 7, and I noted some additional changes needed, which resulted in version 8. p. 15 – Footnote 16 references PM 1.02.6 related to the motion to approve the EC minutes. That policy only discusses the auto-approval procedures, for which this motion was not eligible since the first draft was not submitted by that deadline. I am unsure how this reference relates to this motion, which was not an auto-approval. p. 15 – I realize the order of this isn’t particularly significant, but under the “Vendor Presentations” heading, it indicates that the Mad Statist presentation was prior to our lunch break. According to my notes, we broke for lunch and heard from AgendaPop during that time. My raw notes say, “At 1:33 p.m. Redpath moved to agenda to take up Kieran O’Se next after 10-minute recess”, which was following lunch. So I think those two paragraphs are chronologically reversed. p. 14 – Footnote 14 indicates that there is a version 3 of the Secretary’s report, but I don’t believe that was distributed to the LNC. The last copy that I have is version 2. As noted above, the version in the appendices is version 1, and even if it were version 3, the low-resolution pictures inserted into the appendix are VERY difficult to read, making it a pain to review their contents. It would be easier to review if a copy of that document were sent separately to us. p. 7 – Regarding the section, “Mr. Sarwark ruled Ms. Mattson’s motion OUT OF ORDER as not only…” – It is not recorded that I cited RONR p. 408-9 as expressly permitting the motion that I was making. I also noted twice during the debate that we were past the timeliness requirements for a motion to reconsider, and we had already carried out the thing that the original motion called for, therefore a motion to reconsider would be out of order at this time. (P.S. note to the universe, it only requires a majority vote to adopt a motion to reconsider anyway, not 2/3.) p. 6 – I realize this item is not significant, but it indicates “the LNC entered recess for twenty (20) minutes”. The chair actually said 10 minutes, rather than 20. -Alicia On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/
* =========================================================================
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes): - Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks! -Alicia On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/
* =========================================================================
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first. Expect in the next few days. On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/
* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent. I wanted to comment on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated): p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes. LOVED that as I didn't know that. p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question. p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count. I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read them... the previous question was without objection, then that question (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording to alleviate any potential confusion. ==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion.=== I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote to make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention minutes, there *was* editorializing. There was a ruling of the chair but then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is what I objected to. I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16 ) where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR references is improper. It is interpretive and not properly part of the record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have been incorrect. I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are entirely different.* I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there. Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in my next email) On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first.
Expect in the next few days.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/
*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
Also I wanted to be sure we are on the same page with the One Note. The Staff Reports and the Region 2 report were there to download - if you right click on the PDF icon at the very top of that item. The Blockchain report had not submitted at that time, so that wasn't there (so I added it). On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 2:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent. I wanted to comment on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
LOVED that as I didn't know that.
p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read them... the previous question was without objection, then that question (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording to alleviate any potential confusion.
==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion.===
I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote to make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention minutes, there *was* editorializing. There was a ruling of the chair but then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is what I objected to. I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16 ) where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR references is improper. It is interpretive and not properly part of the record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have been incorrect. I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are entirely different.*
I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in my next email)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first.
Expect in the next few days.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/
*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
CAH: I think you are misremembering a bit [...snip...] I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. [...snip...] I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there. Let me demonstrate that I am not misremembering. At the 04/15/17 LNC meeting, I moved to approve the 2016 convention minutes which included three appendices: Appendix A – state by state detail for election results Appendix B – election anomalies Appendix C – endnotes, which consist of verbatim copy/paste quotations from RONR with not a single word of editorializing by me – At the request of Ms. Harlos, I added an intro paragraph saying I was the author of the appendix and, “It represents the opinion of the Secretary that these are relevant passages for the referenced situation.” Attached is audio of your debate comments, which I have transcribed below: CAH 04/15/17: “I appreciate that it’s in the appendix now ‘cause it was my original objection. I’m sorry that I kept the minutes that long. But I’m still kind of unclear why included in minutes we have – I find all those appendix reports extraordinarily helpful. I read them for past years, but I have to express some discomfort that they’re included, even though it’s not part of the minutes, as part of the minutes. I think maybe the supplementary commentary reports should be completely separated from the minutes. I think members get confused that these are somehow official, or that the LNC members are approving of the opinions that are in these appendixes. I find the opinions very valuable, but I think it’s confusing to members.” When we were ready to vote and the chair asked whether there was objection to approving the minutes, you said, “Again, I think the appendices – so I have an objection.” We conducted a roll call vote, and you voted against the motion. You very clearly did object to them being in an appendix. Your vocabulary choice was plural (appendices), but you were not talking about the state-by-state election details or the report of election anomalies. The “opinions” which you thought would “confuse” the members were the verbatim RONR quotes in appendix C. So to reiterate my original point about the draft March 2019 minutes, you've started adding more and more RONR references, which were apparently only objectionable when I did them, but not when you do them. Beyond the rule references, this term’s minutes contain large volumes of opinion in the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc., and you have argued that including such opinion is important for “transparency,” for informing the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom.” RONR references in minutes drafted by me? Objectionable, and “opinion” shouldn’t be included. RONR references plus large volumes of extensive opinion when drafted by you? Noble, customary, and transparent. -Alicia On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent. I wanted to comment on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
LOVED that as I didn't know that.
p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read them... the previous question was without objection, then that question (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording to alleviate any potential confusion.
==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion.===
I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote to make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention minutes, there *was* editorializing. There was a ruling of the chair but then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is what I objected to. I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16 ) where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR references is improper. It is interpretive and not properly part of the record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have been incorrect. I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are entirely different.*
I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in my next email)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first.
Expect in the next few days.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/
*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
Ms. Mattson, as I said in the written discussions here on the topic, my objection was as stated. I think I am the best authority on my opinion. I don't have an issue with the appendixes as long as it is clear that it wasn't part of the record. Whenever the RONR reference is not part of the discussion, I put in a footnote to make that clear. I am not comfortable with the combative characterization here. I believe I have made my position clear. And the whole thing that prompted my objection was a particular comment in the minutes following a ruling of the Chair that then said (but see RONR xxxx) which blatantly implied the chair was wrong. And maybe he was. But that didn't belong in the body of the minutes. On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:48 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
CAH: I think you are misremembering a bit [...snip...] I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. [...snip...] I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Let me demonstrate that I am not misremembering. At the 04/15/17 LNC meeting, I moved to approve the 2016 convention minutes which included three appendices:
Appendix A – state by state detail for election results Appendix B – election anomalies Appendix C – endnotes, which consist of verbatim copy/paste quotations from RONR with not a single word of editorializing by me – At the request of Ms. Harlos, I added an intro paragraph saying I was the author of the appendix and, “It represents the opinion of the Secretary that these are relevant passages for the referenced situation.”
Attached is audio of your debate comments, which I have transcribed below:
CAH 04/15/17: “I appreciate that it’s in the appendix now ‘cause it was my original objection. I’m sorry that I kept the minutes that long. But I’m still kind of unclear why included in minutes we have – I find all those appendix reports extraordinarily helpful. I read them for past years, but I have to express some discomfort that they’re included, even though it’s not part of the minutes, as part of the minutes. I think maybe the supplementary commentary reports should be completely separated from the minutes. I think members get confused that these are somehow official, or that the LNC members are approving of the opinions that are in these appendixes. I find the opinions very valuable, but I think it’s confusing to members.”
When we were ready to vote and the chair asked whether there was objection to approving the minutes, you said, “Again, I think the appendices – so I have an objection.” We conducted a roll call vote, and you voted against the motion.
You very clearly did object to them being in an appendix.
Your vocabulary choice was plural (appendices), but you were not talking about the state-by-state election details or the report of election anomalies. The “opinions” which you thought would “confuse” the members were the verbatim RONR quotes in appendix C.
So to reiterate my original point about the draft March 2019 minutes, you've started adding more and more RONR references, which were apparently only objectionable when I did them, but not when you do them. Beyond the rule references, this term’s minutes contain large volumes of opinion in the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc., and you have argued that including such opinion is important for “transparency,” for informing the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom.”
RONR references in minutes drafted by me? Objectionable, and “opinion” shouldn’t be included. RONR references plus large volumes of extensive opinion when drafted by you? Noble, customary, and transparent.
-Alicia
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent. I wanted to comment on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
LOVED that as I didn't know that.
p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read them... the previous question was without objection, then that question (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording to alleviate any potential confusion.
==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion.===
I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote to make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention minutes, there *was* editorializing. There was a ruling of the chair but then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is what I objected to. I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16 ) where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR references is improper. It is interpretive and not properly part of the record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have been incorrect. I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are entirely different.*
I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in my next email)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos < caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first.
Expect in the next few days.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector
Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/
*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
I will also add, but I am not going to dedicate any time with this (IMHO non-troversy), that there were many many times in your prior minutes that you included extra items, including humourous asides which I did not (and do not) object to. On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 2:41 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
Ms. Mattson, as I said in the written discussions here on the topic, my objection was as stated. I think I am the best authority on my opinion. I don't have an issue with the appendixes as long as it is clear that it wasn't part of the record. Whenever the RONR reference is not part of the discussion, I put in a footnote to make that clear.
I am not comfortable with the combative characterization here. I believe I have made my position clear. And the whole thing that prompted my objection was a particular comment in the minutes following a ruling of the Chair that then said (but see RONR xxxx) which blatantly implied the chair was wrong. And maybe he was. But that didn't belong in the body of the minutes.
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:48 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
CAH: I think you are misremembering a bit [...snip...] I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. [...snip...] I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Let me demonstrate that I am not misremembering. At the 04/15/17 LNC meeting, I moved to approve the 2016 convention minutes which included three appendices:
Appendix A – state by state detail for election results Appendix B – election anomalies Appendix C – endnotes, which consist of verbatim copy/paste quotations from RONR with not a single word of editorializing by me – At the request of Ms. Harlos, I added an intro paragraph saying I was the author of the appendix and, “It represents the opinion of the Secretary that these are relevant passages for the referenced situation.”
Attached is audio of your debate comments, which I have transcribed below:
CAH 04/15/17: “I appreciate that it’s in the appendix now ‘cause it was my original objection. I’m sorry that I kept the minutes that long. But I’m still kind of unclear why included in minutes we have – I find all those appendix reports extraordinarily helpful. I read them for past years, but I have to express some discomfort that they’re included, even though it’s not part of the minutes, as part of the minutes. I think maybe the supplementary commentary reports should be completely separated from the minutes. I think members get confused that these are somehow official, or that the LNC members are approving of the opinions that are in these appendixes. I find the opinions very valuable, but I think it’s confusing to members.”
When we were ready to vote and the chair asked whether there was objection to approving the minutes, you said, “Again, I think the appendices – so I have an objection.” We conducted a roll call vote, and you voted against the motion.
You very clearly did object to them being in an appendix.
Your vocabulary choice was plural (appendices), but you were not talking about the state-by-state election details or the report of election anomalies. The “opinions” which you thought would “confuse” the members were the verbatim RONR quotes in appendix C.
So to reiterate my original point about the draft March 2019 minutes, you've started adding more and more RONR references, which were apparently only objectionable when I did them, but not when you do them. Beyond the rule references, this term’s minutes contain large volumes of opinion in the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc., and you have argued that including such opinion is important for “transparency,” for informing the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom.”
RONR references in minutes drafted by me? Objectionable, and “opinion” shouldn’t be included. RONR references plus large volumes of extensive opinion when drafted by you? Noble, customary, and transparent.
-Alicia
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org
wrote:
In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent. I wanted to comment on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
p. 35 - :-) Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an experiment as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.” If we acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
LOVED that as I didn't know that.
p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection, Ms. Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3.” This wording choice muddles two separate votes. I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment. There was no objection. Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…” Mr. Smith moved the previous question. There was no objection. Then the Goldstein amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read them... the previous question was without objection, then that question (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording to alleviate any potential confusion.
==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR. You said you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused” that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an opinion.===
I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote to make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention minutes, there *was* editorializing. There was a ruling of the chair but then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is what I objected to. I never objected to them in a footnote or in an appendix. I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16 ) where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR references is improper. It is interpretive and not properly part of the record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have been incorrect. I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are entirely different.*
I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in my next email)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos < caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org> wrote:
I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input first.
Expect in the next few days.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of the following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies of them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
- Staff Report - Blockchain Committee - Region 2 Report
Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from there. Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection for this meeting? Thanks!
-Alicia
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business < lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March minutes. Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and gave their input. I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson before posting but I understand things have been really busy with the California convention.
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/ >*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org < http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
-- * In Liberty,* *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> or Secretary@LP.org. *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia@LP.org Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/ ========================================================================= Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation * *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>* =========================================================================
participants (4)
-
Alicia Mattson -
Caryn Ann Harlos -
Caryn Ann Harlos -
Tim Hagan