No problem. It is going off into the weeds anyhow. I spend way too much time in those weeds. -Caryn Ann On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos@gmail.com
wrote:
And I actually think the current plank requires contortions to be not interpreted in violation of the SoP and should be changed or challenged to the JC quite honestly. That was the over-reach of 2006 but too many people are just ignorant of the history. So I interpret it, with the convolutions needed, so that it doesn't violate the SoP which is agnostic on the state. Yes, it makes my head hurt too. We have confused members with this, and it is unnecessary.
But here we are. It should go back to saying "existing governments" etc. But that is a discussion for another day.
-Caryn Ann
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:31 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos < carynannharlos@gmail.com> wrote:
Daniel, a nit to pick...
== I am saying as per our bylaws, defending people from Aggression is one of the only the only legitimate purposes for a government. ==
Our Bylaws do not address that. Our Bylaws say the Statement of Principles is the foundation of our ideology. Our SoP does not say that. It did in 1972. It was amended in 1974 and that part was removed and changed to say that a government, if it existed, must not violate rights. This gets complex, but it is not quite correct to say that ultimately our position that this is a legitimate function for government - it is a legitimate use of force - and right now the government monopolizes enforcement and thus if it defends against aggression without violating rights, that would be legitimate and right now, it is often the only defense we have. But I am not trying to get into the weeds here, just trying to be clear our Bylaws don't say that. Our Platform says that, but again, must be interpreted in light of our SoP.
We have a state right now. It must defend us as it has made us dependent on it. A minarchist is okay with that, an anarchist is not, but it is the world we have right now. (one flaw is that we use the word government when we mean state and sometimes vice versa).
-Caryn Ann
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:16 PM, Daniel Hayes <danielehayes@icloud.com> wrote:
Starchild,
I pulled it straight from the platform for a reason. I think it was important to frame it from the context of the voice of our delegates. It is from them that we derive our authority as a committee.
I was not writing a plank on self defense. I am saying as per our bylaws, defending people from Aggression is one of the only the only legitimate purposes for a government. It was in that stead that members of the US military serve(d) and that they were not at odds with our platform just for being part of it.
The purpose for this resolution is not to cast aspersions on the US military.. though it does indeed impugn the system we have in place and the way it has manipulated people, most of who have good and noble intentions. The purpose for this resolution is to say we need the unique perspective that members of the military can bring to the discussion. That is something that has been made unclear in recent times. They have seen up close and personal where the "ruling class" has manipulated good intentions into something else.
It's also not the scope of this resolution to determine whether or not a standing army run by the government is the right solution to defense.
As that first clause dates back at LEAST to 1974 as Caryn Ann had pointed out. I think it safe to say that it leaves open the possibility of a privatized military instead of a government run one. The reality is that we have the current defense we have. We need to walk it back. To help us do that we need people that have been and are on the inside.
People become like the people they associate with. Wouldn't we want to associate with those currently in the role of defenders of the United States where we live? We can then keep in their mind the principles of libertarianism like the Non-Aggression Axiom. If we are going to achieve peace it helps to have the guys with the biggest guns with us and thinking like us.
On a final note. Suicide in the military is an epidemic. If we can lighten the burden some of these members of the military carry and give them an outlet to help us achieve peace, I think that is the human thing to do.
So backing up to your original question. I think the first phrase definitely could be any military force sufficient to defend the United States.
Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member
Sent from my iPhone
On May 20, 2017, at 10:29 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Daniel,
If you as the maker of the motion will affirm that your use of the phrase in this context is *not* a reference to the U.S. government's military, but could include any military force or forces sufficient to defend the United States against aggression, that would go a long way toward allaying the concerns I expressed.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee RealReform@earthilnk.net (415) 625-FREE
On May 20, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:
Starchild.
The first Wheras clause is taken STRAIGHT from the platform. A plank that has existed in similar form dating back to the Dallas accords.
*"3.1 National Defense* We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service."
Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member
Sent from my iPhone
On May 20, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@earthlink.net> wrote:
Personally, I *do* consider a military capacity to shoot down missiles and aircraft aimed at targets within the area known as the United States – e.g. a missile launch by the regime controlling the area known as North Korea – desirable. My strong preference however would be for such an air defense system to be independently maintained and voluntarily funded. Sadly, the chances of such an independent defense capacity existing at present or in the near future seems remote.
On the other hand, despite a U.S. government military budget of over half a trillion dollars per year (per https://www.defense.gov/News/N ews-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/652687/department-of- defense-dod-releases-fiscal-year-2017-presidents-budget-proposal/ ), the odds that the U.S. government is or will be able to protect against such threats exacerbated by its own policies also seem alarmingly slim to me (particularly alarming from the vantage point of living in a major city on the west coast), given their track record that includes failures such as being unable to scramble fighter jets in time to stop the 9/11 attacks – unless one assumes those attacks were an "inside job" or were deliberately allowed to take place, neither of which possibilities I rule out – or to stop a drunken government employee from crash-landing a drone on the White House lawn (see https://www.nytimes.com/2015/0 1/28/us/white-house-drone.html ). Nor, for that matter, has the aforementioned military spending done anything that I'm aware of to protect citizens, residents, and others in the United States from the most serious armed threat facing them – the resolution, after all, refers broadly to "defend(ing) the United States against aggression", and does not specify any particular source(s) of that aggression. *I would argue that both the worst current aggressor against the United States, and the entity that poses the greatest future threat of aggression, is the U.S. government itself!*
For this reason, among others, the fact that the resolution appears to endorse a standing U.S. government military force is very troubling to me. I'm more inclined to agree with the American founders, who generally opposed such a standing army.
Explicit *Libertarian Party* support for the maintenance of such an institution, I should point out, would also be a violation of the Dallas Accord on keeping the party officially neutral between the anarchist and minarchist (limited government) positions and not specifying how much government we ideally want to see in existence, if any.
It's worth pointing out however that endorsement of a government standing army isn't the only way the resolution can be interpreted – although I suspect that if we were to survey people on whether such language constitutes an endorsement of a standing government army, most respondents would say yes. Here are a couple other possible interpretations which I think are *technically consistent *with the wording, although probably not what the maker or sponsors had in mind:
• Since people on the part of Earth's surface commonly known as "the United States" could be defended against aggression via a non-aggressive foreign policy, a large and active libertarian movement, and a well-armed populace, the amount of military *sufficient* to defend the United States against aggression is zero, and thus that is (implicitly) the amount that we would be supporting if we pass the motion
• The resolution's mention of "sufficient military to defend the United States" refers to non-government military forces such as independent militias, not to the U.S. government's military
I mention these possible anarchist interpretations only for the record, not because I believe they are weighty enough to make the resolution acceptable as written. Given the considerations noted above, *I must oppose the motion as written and* *accordingly vote no*.
On the positive side however, it is only the wording of the first "Whereas" clause that appears particularly problematic to me. The rest of the resolution, while not ideal in my view, seems palatable under the circumstances, and if that first clause, or at least the words *"support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression and"* can be dropped, then I would be inclined to support it unless someone else manages to point out reasons I would consider strong enough to warrant abstention.
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild ))) At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee RealReform@earthlink.net (415) 625-FREE
On May 20, 2017, at 1:01 AM, lnc-votes@hq.lp.org wrote:
We have an electronic mail ballot.
*Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 30, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.* *Sponsor:* Hayes, Hewitt, Hagan, Mattson
*Motion:*
Whereas, We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression and believe that the United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world;
Whereas, We oppose any form of compulsory national service and recognize that many members of the military were unjustly conscripted in the past;
Whereas, Most voluntary members of the military joined with the idea and/or goal of defending the United States and, thereby, their property, families, and friends;
Whereas, The United States Military-Industrial-Complex has used many well-meaning military service members for purposes other than defense against aggression and further involved them in foreign entanglements during attempts to act as the world’s policeman; and
Whereas, Many current and former military service members are able to relate, identify, and speak out on the ways in which the United States military mission has been expanded and corrupted beyond a legitimate role of defense against aggression; now, therefore, be it;
Resolved, Present and former members of the military who give such unique and powerful voice to the libertarian principles of peace and the non-initiation of force add great value to the Libertarian Party, and are welcomed as a vital part of our membership.
-Alicia
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-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*
-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*
-- *In Liberty,* *Caryn Ann Harlos* Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos@LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos@LP.org> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee A haiku to the Statement of Principles: *We defend your rights* *And oppose the use of force* *Taxation is theft*